Indian Nations Youth Sports

Football => General Football Discussions => Topic started by: PlayFair01 on September 21, 2019, 07:53:06 pm


Title: Participation rules
Post by: PlayFair01 on September 21, 2019, 07:53:06 pm
I realize this us an unpopular opinion, likely not shared by many, but maybe I will be surprsed.  I also know things will never change without action so here goes.  Is anyone else frustrated by the participation rules? It seems that some coaches, maybe it is just ours, are using the kickoffs as the way to get all of the players on a team their required plays.  Our team has consistently used kickoffs to get 6 to 9 of the required plays, meaning our boys see between 2 and 5 live action plays.  I would love to hear the argument where kids are expected to improve when they only see the field a handful of times.  These are young boys that just want to learn to play a game and many are not getting the opportunity.  I understand that many teams are super competitive and I understand that if you want more playing time then get better, but how can you get better without seeing the field.  I would like to see if there is any support to adjusting the participation rules to allow kids to actually be able to play the game they love and if so how would one go about challenging the status quo.  Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way, curious how others feel.  Thank you.

A concerned parent
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: CoachEmUp" on September 21, 2019, 10:05:47 pm
I think you have a right to question participation rules and you can always email the infc your concerns and maybe they change it in the future. Kids get better in practice especially grades that have 2 hour practices 3 times a week. Some kids just don’t give it there all or could be unruly. I will agree some kids are great at practice and just not the same talent level as others. And some times they get clumped in with others and get the minimum plays and that sucks. I would say it’s always best to go to your coach and ask why your child is getting the minimum plays and what you can do for your child to participate more. It’s hard to be mad at a coach when they don’t set the participation rules. And abide by those rules. My word of advice would be to call your coach and ask what can you do for your kid to get more plays. That goes a long way!
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: baller25 on September 22, 2019, 08:51:34 am
every school needs to have a primary team with all stud players and a secondary team with new/limited ability players who play in the AA division against each other.  that is a decision that must be made by the local school athletic program directors, but most won't do it out of some idiotic "perception" that they'll be seen as weak.  some schools already do this whether they admit it or not, but i say good on them either way.

competitive youth baseball divides up players and teams by their abilities into A (least ability), AA, AAA, and majors (stud ability) divisions.  it solves several problems.  it ensures that kids don't get buried on teams like you are describing.  and it ensures that they'll get to play, and play against kids with similar abilities.  it keeps coaches from being forced to play players that aren't of similar ability.  it keeps parents happy because they play.

but it will never happen unless infc and local athletic directors agree to do it this way.  parents too.  but infc can't even build a usable website so don't hold your breath
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: footballmom31 on September 22, 2019, 11:21:48 am
I recently had to have this exact topic with my coach. Being a parent with multiple children in multiple sports I combat this the most with football, for whatever reason. So I know your frustrations. I agree with coachemup, express your concerns with your coach and you do always have the INFC to refer to as well.
However I believe the minimum play count should be increased. I recently did the stats on this since football people speak numbers.

You have a team of 20 players, minimum play count is 7. There are on average 70+ plays per game. So if your child participates in 7-10 plays that’s less than a 10% participation in the game. Which those 7 plays are mostly kick-offs and not true action plays. Each coach is different on how they “hide” their weaker players so to speak. And that is my issue.

The fundamentals to a team are only being as strong as your weakest link. With that being said in my opinion coaches should be working twice as hard to bring those “subpar” players up and find a true purpose for them on their team. Not find a way to hide them and only let them participate in what they HAVE to.

It’s a hard balance to find, and because football has the lowest minimum participation rules compared to any other sport my kids play in you see these children not being coached and “hidden” instead. Which in turn reduces the amount of children and parents that want to participate in the game.


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Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: BB_984 on September 22, 2019, 12:07:28 pm
I tend to agree with @baller25. In our area, our youth football leaders determined for safety reasons, it was better to go with two teams with 20+ players, versus three with 15. I really believe if we had promoted we were going to have a developmental team in the AA league/division, we would have additional players signup and would have had three teams. This would have allowed some of the players needing more development, currently on the A level teams, a chance to move to this squad, where they would have received the same level of coaching, improve their skill sets, and likely could have had a chance at starting. Another thing, not that football isn’t dangerous at any age, it gets increasingly more so the higher the grade level. I’ve witnessed hits and tackles this year, that I remember back when I was in high school several moons ago. The physical capabilities and strength of these kids is amazing, so the coaches have to be cognizant of that a well when they are substituting players. I would also contend that kickoffs and kickoff returns can be extremely violent and are earned positions on our team. I’m not disagreeing with the original poster, I’m just saying there is much that goes into decisions made by the coaches.
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: HoneyBadger1 on September 22, 2019, 12:17:36 pm
My opinion I’ve never known a child to get better in game time situation only. A game only last hour half, but 4 days of practice for 2 hours a day that’s where a child can get better. My thing is when kids hit 8th grade there is no participation rule so what are you really teaching kids? That since momma/daddy paid money you have to play. Competitive baseball players have to tryout to make the team, so once they make the team it’s all for sure they will play. Because most coaches aren’t taking no more than 10 kids on a competitive baseball team as well as in basketball. One thing I explain to my parents I will promise every kid will get 7 plays but every play after that is earned.
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: baller25 on September 22, 2019, 05:56:02 pm
they won't get better in game time situation only but that's why we play.  to play in games.   kids lose interest if they don't get to play.  i don't fault any coach for playing new/limited ability kids to the minimum plays, those are the rules, might as well apply them. 

my argument is that this is a systemic issue and we are pretending that football at this level is a rec type sport when in fact it is as competitive as it can get.  yes competitive baseball teams have tryouts.  football at this level especially in infc should be tryout based.  new/limited ability kids should have a rec type league or a division within infc with rec type teams, which is supposedly what the AA division is.  but these local athletic directors force multiple A division teams within the same school because their egos won't let them have AA level teams.  changing this will have to come from a huge movement to do so by parents and coaches.

or we can just keep being naive and pretending that the 55 lb kid that is a foot shorter than everyone is on the same equal playing field as the 120 lb kid that is as big as an adult, and then we can just keep saying "oh but he just needs to work harder in practice"
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: Coach12 on September 22, 2019, 06:08:00 pm
I know no one will like my rebuttal, but, I’m going to put it out there.

Unfortunately, some kids just aren’t “made for football”. Although they have a love for the sport, they just don’t have the God given talent that other players do. (Not saying this is your child)

As a coach, you are expected to win... at ANY level. The only object of a competitive sport is to win. Telling your “elite” players that one player deserves as much playing time as him just because he’s on the team is not fair to anyone... including the elite player’s parents.
We as coaches are expected to field the best 11 players on the team, and include all other players a minimum of 7 plays. As stated before, players do not get better from the 1 hour game played on Saturday. Players get better during practice, and extra time/effort put forth outside of “normal” practice times.
Some children are blessed with more athletic talent than others... that’s just the way the world works. Would we absolutely love if every child on our team had the same abilities and could contribute to the team equally? Yes!!! But again, this world wasn’t built that way.
If we were to give every player equal playing time because they signed up, you increase your chances of not winning. Next step, parents with elite players complain that you aren’t fielding the best team possible. Again, we are expected to win. I’ve seen teams in multiple sports fall apart because they simply do not win.

As coaches, we cannot simply GIVE a child more talent. We can only teach, ask for their best efforts, and gauge our responsibility as a coach from the displayed abilities.
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: HoneyBadger1 on September 22, 2019, 08:50:53 pm
Baller 25 I do agree with some of the things you are saying. I was told that the INFC is not considered a competitive football league I’m guessing because everyone is required to play. But in reality this league is very competitive, I think some schools should have 1st year players play AA but then you have other schools who that wouldn’t work out for because not every school is putting multiple teams on the field. So a team like Jenks may have a bunch of great athletes on one team and the other team have first year players playing down in AA. But a team like Muskogee would have to keep those first year players on their 1 team because Muskogee don’t have multiple teams in every grade. So automatically the advantage goes to the team who didn’t have to get any first year players. Not every kid blessed with God given talent but you don’t have to be the most talented kid on the field either. What are the parents doing outside of practice to help get the better? How much extra time is being spent to help the child with fundamentals outside of normal practice days? How often is the kid outside just working on something? Just because a kid is undersized don’t mean anything. We have several kids on our 7th grade team who barely weight 80 pounds and they battle every weekend with running backs who weigh 130-149. But I do see what you are getting at, kids can also help themselves by playing in 7v7 league or the 9v9 league.
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: PlayFair01 on September 22, 2019, 09:27:46 pm
I cometely agree with the sentiment that kids get better in practice, except for when kids are put in spots they will never play in games for the sole purpose of getting reps for the A team.  Then game time roles around and kids are hidden out on the field and have no idea what to do because they have not been allowed to practice that position and have not been allowed to tackle in practice.  The game is completely foreign and they only have 2 or 3 plays then the game is over and nothing was gained.  I get that not all kids are cutout for everything, but I feel our league should not be cutting them off at the knees before they even get a chance.  Great discussion, thank you all for the input. Best of luck to you all.
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: baller25 on September 22, 2019, 10:14:18 pm
man playfair i hope everything works out for you.  i feel like i got a unique perspective on this issue cause i been both a coach and a parent, and my 2 sons both playing, my oldest is a "minimum play" kid and my youngest is an elite level player.  i have coached them both and i have been in the stands as a parent too.  so i relate to what your saying.
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: Shaffer5 on September 23, 2019, 09:37:08 am
At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Baseball has minimum play requirements as well. Yet, people want to cry when their kid gets put out in Right Field and has to bat 9th. There has to be a Right Fielder and a 9th batter regardless. Not all but, most coaches will never sit a player who will got out and actually try to play regardless of talent but, when it becomes a safety issue or a "want too" issue then the coach has to make a decision that protects not only the minimum play player but, the rest of the team as well. This is a contact sport that can be dangerous at times under certain circumstances. Most of the time it is the parents or Grandparents who have unrealistic views of their own child or grandchild's effort or ability. In football if a kid will give effort a coach can find a spot for the but, if they are scared of contact and most times to the point of turning their back to contact it does become a safety issue. Kids get better at practice. I challenge parents to come sit at a practice and try to give an honest review of their kids effort and ability before getting upset. Because when it comes to playing time and a parent asking there is almost no correct answer a coach can give because the parent will never accept it due to the relationship that we all have with our children. So, in that I say once again just be sure to give an honest assessment of your child. Also, I seen someone say there is 70 + plays in a game? Are you serious? Those 8 mins go quick! 
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: bk99 on September 23, 2019, 04:28:23 pm
Yes alot of good opinions here. Try your best not to look through the jaded parent goggles here. You have kids when it's there turn to get in for practice goofed off in line didn't pay attention to their position and learn the plays. Due to the fact they didnt pay attention are now a liability on the field. Kickoffs extra points etc get them their required play limit but if you aren't on the same level as the "starters " and you aren't going to give the same effort nor pay attention that's the way it is. If your not getting better in practice how do you expect to get better suddenly in a game. Just because you pay your league fees and show up doesn't get you playing time behind the minimum. Get better at practice
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: Coach7 on September 23, 2019, 04:55:28 pm
The reality is that kids will develop and will be on the field at some point , this come sooner than later for others-----and kids that good off or lack attention will eventually not be playing if that continues. Most coaches wd say 12 plays for a kid that doesn't know how to line up and put other kids in danger of injury is to many anyhow---- and just FYI in 5th it goes to 7 plays only and then in JH there is no guarantee of playing time ever again--- now the obvious statement is as kiddos improve their playing time will increase.   And let's call it what it is, it's unfair to up the number of plays if some teams have 15 and some have 29 and they are limited to same amount of coaching. So like I said most of this stuff takes care of itself w time
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: Coach7 on September 23, 2019, 05:04:42 pm
To add to my above post. What we do is schedule scrimmages during the week from time to time and I actually play my second team a ltitle more than my first team during these scrimmages --- so on our team every kid does get the opportunity to show improvement
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: bk99 on September 23, 2019, 05:05:54 pm
If participation trophies and equal playing time is what you are after I believe there are some flag leagues ,flex football, and salvation army available as options. I believe the rules put in place by infc are plenty adequate. Maybe I'm fortunate my kid isnt one of those that has to worry about that but if he wasnt on the level of others I wouldnt **** and moan about it on a forum
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: Coach7 on September 23, 2019, 10:07:22 pm
I hate to beat a dead horse but I do have say, some on here believe the "coaches" shd do more, coach better, spend more time here or there.   The reality is this is a volunteer situation, and most are doing a huge service to their community. Truth be known if you kiddo need extra attention,spend some of your time and money, take them to private, go to speed and agility, make sure they are on a great diet.   But let's not blame volunteers for any child's development.  IMO once again many may disagree
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: footballmom31 on September 23, 2019, 10:34:44 pm
I think even with a difference of opinion nobody was trying to blame the coach for the child’s development. There’s two sides to every story, this is no different. If the kids can do better surely some coaches could too.
Constructive criticism is a two way street. I know that I try to relate to each side. I’m not always successful, but I try.
This sounds like it was a post just to hear different sides of the spectrum.


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Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: baller25 on September 24, 2019, 12:04:37 am
shaffer5 competitive baseball does not have minimum play requirements.  you are talking about rec level ball.  that is what i am saying here, infc poses as a rec league but it is competitive!  football teams should be tryout based!  i was a coach and i didn't want the minimum play kids on my team.  and my oldest boy was one of them!  i had to get them the minimums though because it was the rules.  if i could have had a tryout like baseball and picked the best players, and we did away with these silly minimum play rules, at least everybody would have known the deal and you would be either good enough to play or you sit.  and with that if there was a true rec football league where all players had to play at least 2 quarters, that solves the discontent about not playing enough if it is all equal.

but it won't happen unless a big movement occurs where parents and coaches agree on it and push for it together
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: AllIn21 on September 24, 2019, 07:49:38 am
Football is a meritocracy, and should be treated as such. Lessons learned through football expound into every facet of life in the real world. Minimum plays blunt that lesson, and can have an unintended consequence of fostering entitlement syndrome. We’re seeing a lot of that these days, and it’s a conglomeration if policies sometimes as small as minimum plays, quarters etc.

Bottom line, rules are rules. As a coach I want every kid to enjoy the game and get better every day they practice and play. We get our boys as much burn as we can, some games more than others. It’s situational. Parents have to respect that and most do.

The hope is that the kids in youth ball will carry over to school ball and be better prepared for those challenges. If your coaches are doing that, then applaud them. Regardless of individual playing time. Once these kids hit school ball it won’t matter what your or my opinion is. Playing time will be based on production. Period. Just like real life, there will be no participation trophies or equal pay/play. It’ll be who can do this job the best and who can’t. Be thankful for coaches that are teaching your sons that lesson, and make sure your sons are learning it
Title: Re: Participation rules
Post by: HoneyBadger1 on September 24, 2019, 08:46:40 am
One of the things you could do is make sure if you are winning 21-0 get those other kids playing time as much as possible. But with the infc having the 12 play or 7 play rule it’s actually a rec. league that’s very competitive. As a coach you should make sure you explain to parents during your first team meeting that every kid is required to play 7 plays, and unfortunately some kids will be 7 play kids. But not all first year players are 7 play kids either. I don’t think everyone would be behind that movement that you are thinking about. But a movement that needs to happen is more parents putting in more time to help get their kids better don’t expect volunteer coaches to turn your kid into a great athlete. Kids need to learn how to compete, fail, succeed, win and lose. Lets stop trying to make everything equal or easy.