Indian Nations Youth Sports

Football => "Ask the Ref" => Topic started by: Coach12 on November 06, 2018, 10:28:57 am

Title: Pass Interference
Post by: Coach12 on November 06, 2018, 10:28:57 am
Where can I find the specific rules pertaining to pass interference in 4th grade?
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: CoachEmUp" on November 06, 2018, 10:53:20 am
So 4th grade goes by the NFHS rule book on pass Interference. Rule 7-5 page 61. The infc rules are addition to the NFHS Rulebook. I sent mav the photos of the rule book so he can forward to you.
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Coach12 on November 06, 2018, 11:38:36 am
Thanks Coach!
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: zebra99 on November 07, 2018, 11:39:11 am
I’ll assume your talking about defensive pass interference. Offensive is a little different. It’s Too long to type all of it but basics from rules book:
7-5-8: restriction begin when ball leaves passers hand (so no PI can be called prior to ball being thrown)
7-5-9: restriction ends when ball has been touched by any player (so cannot have PI if ball has been tipped or touched by anyone anywhere on the field)
7-5-10: if contact beyond the NZ (so no PI behind line of scrimmage) interferes with opportunity to move toward or catch the ball
7-5-11:  not PI if...
A: unavoidable contact occurs while both players are making an attempt to move toward or catch the pass (feet tangled, hand fighting, shoulder to shoulder contact, etc - if going both ways and both players are legitimately playing the ball)
B: this part only applies to offense so omitted
C: contact is away from the direction of the pass (so contact that would otherwise be PI occurs on a TE when the ball is in the air and clearly being thrown to a WR)

A couple notes to address comments or questions I’ve heard from coaches:
1.  Since you cannot have PI prior to a pass. Yes the defense can hit a receiver downfield prior to the pass being thrown.  He cannot target him, hold him, tackle him, commit a personal foul, etc These would all be fouls for other rules violations but not PI. Basic contact, even contact that puts the receiver on the ground, is allowable.
2.  If contact is simultaneous or bang/bang with the receiver touching the ball, our philosophy is not to split the hair.  That’s good defense.



Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Coach12 on November 07, 2018, 12:41:56 pm
Thanks Zebra. Appreciate the help and inside info. My question was in regards to the second part of your post, number 1. WR is running his route, 7 yards down the field (before the ball is thrown), he is basically tackled... No call was made. Happened twice. Was told it was legal. Seems like it might have been able to be called both ways. More of a judgement call...
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Lackey4Prez on November 07, 2018, 01:07:03 pm
Thanks Zebra. Appreciate the help and inside info. My question was in regards to the second part of your post, number 1. WR is running his route, 7 yards down the field (before the ball is thrown), he is basically tackled... No call was made. Happened twice. Was told it was legal. Seems like it might have been able to be called both ways. More of a judgement call...

For the record I disagree... if a defender hits a receiver that is 5 yards or more beyond the line of scrimmage even if the ball is still in the QB’s hand that is a penalty and should be called..


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Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Coach12 on November 07, 2018, 01:25:38 pm
Thanks Zebra. Appreciate the help and inside info. My question was in regards to the second part of your post, number 1. WR is running his route, 7 yards down the field (before the ball is thrown), he is basically tackled... No call was made. Happened twice. Was told it was legal. Seems like it might have been able to be called both ways. More of a judgement call...

For the record I disagree... if a defender hits a receiver that is 5 yards or more beyond the line of scrimmage even if the ball is still in the QB’s hand that is a penalty and should be called..


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Totally agree...
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: zebra99 on November 07, 2018, 01:26:33 pm
Coach 12, I would agree a tackle should be a foul, although I guess you have to see it.  When I said “tackle” my intent was a classic tackle involving wrapping the opponent up.  Since there is no rule specifically against “tackling” The foul would have to be a hold (meaning the tackle starts by grasping and or holding the opponent before taking them to the ground), Or it would have be a personal foul (such as contact to the head or below the waist).  I had a game last week where the receiver dragging the middle was hit and went to the ground, but there was no grasp or hold associated with it, there was no contact to the head or neck, just solid shoulder to shoulder or chest contact that sent the receiver down - so no foul. 

Lackey,  you’re welcome to disagree but there is absolutely no rule book support for that philosophical.  Your thoughts are in line with the NFL illegal contact rule.  However, That rule is not present in the NFHS rule book (or NCAA for that matter). The INFC uses the NFHS rules.  If an official calls that foul in an INFC game, they are not applying the rules, but instead making up their own. 
Title: Pass Interference
Post by: Lackey4Prez on November 07, 2018, 01:35:54 pm
Coach 12, I would agree a tackle should be a foul, although I guess you have to see it.  When I said “tackle” my intent was a classic tackle involving wrapping the opponent up.  Since there is no rule specifically against “tackling” The foul would have to be a hold meaning the tackle starts by grasping and or holding the opponent before taking them to the ground.  Or it would have be a personal foul such as contact to the head or below the waist.  I had a game last week where the receiver was hit and went to the ground, but there was no grasp or hold associated with it, there was no contact to the head or neck, just solid shoulder to shoulder contact that sent the receiver down - so no foul. 

Lackey,  you’re welcome to disagree but there is absolutely no rule book support for that philosophical.  Your thoughts are in line with the NFL illegal contact rule.  However, That rule is not present in the NFHS rule book (or NCAA for that matter). The INFC uses the NFHS rules.  If an official calls that foul in an INFC game, they are not applying the rules, but instead making up their own.

Completely understand that there is not a rule based on what you wrote... not arguing that you are wrong just that I disagree with a receiver looking back for a pass and the safety / LB can clean his clock so long as he hits him “legally” and before the ball leaves the QB’s hand..

To elaborate more on this.. last night I had a safety intercept a pass and return it for a TD but that was called back for a blindside block that was not led with the hands during the return.. why in the world can you not lead with your shoulder on that play when you can in a receiver that is also getting hit blindly as he is looking into the backfield..

Again not stating that you are wrong but the consistency in the rules suck.. I’m all for hitting so don’t get me wrong but let’s use some basic common sense in the rules... I think the 5 yard rule is a good standard that should be adopted across the board.




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Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Director of Officials on November 07, 2018, 02:50:24 pm
Lacky,

It depends on when the defensive player hits the receiver but both of those could be defenseless players, Illegal blind side block could be called on either of them. Or a personal foul for illegal contact to a defenseless player. 

Section 33, Article 16 in the NFHS rulebook states: A defenseless player is a player who, because of his physical position and focus on concentration, is especially vulnerable to injury.  A player who initiates contact against a defenseless player is responsible for making legal contact.  When in question, a player is defenseless. 
Examples of a defenseless player include, but are not limited to:
a.) a passer
b.) A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner
c.) the intended receiver of a pass in the action during or immediately following an interception or potential interception
h.) a player who receives a blindside block with forceful contact not initiated with open hands

B, C & H all could back a call on illegal contact towards a receiver. 

As far as if it is called every time, I am sure we can get better at calling those hits and also coaching our kids on how to do it correctly. 
Unfortunately, INFC does not have instant replay to go back and take a penalty away like they do on TV so I think officials are more hesitant to call it. 
College and pro officials have it made when it comes to this, if it looks bad just throw you flag and then we will decide if it was really a penalty in slow motion during 15 replays. 

Safety of the kids should be the number one goal of both officials and coaches. 


Your statement below:
To elaborate more on this.. last night I had a safety intercept a pass and return it for a TD but that was called back for a blindside block that was not led with the hands during the return.. why in the world can you not lead with your shoulder on that play when you can in a receiver that is also getting hit blindly as he is looking into the backfield..

Title: Pass Interference
Post by: Lackey4Prez on November 07, 2018, 03:08:26 pm
Lacky,

It depends on when the defensive player hits the receiver but both of those could be defenseless players, Illegal blind side block could be called on either of them. Or a personal foul for illegal contact to a defenseless player. 

Section 33, Article 16 in the NFHS rulebook states: A defenseless player is a player who, because of his physical position and focus on concentration, is especially vulnerable to injury.  A player who initiates contact against a defenseless player is responsible for making legal contact.  When in question, a player is defenseless. 
Examples of a defenseless player include, but are not limited to:
a.) a passer
b.) A receiver attempting to catch a pass who has not had time to clearly become a runner
c.) the intended receiver of a pass in the action during or immediately following an interception or potential interception
h.) a player who receives a blindside block with forceful contact not initiated with open hands

B, C & H all could back a call on illegal contact towards a receiver. 

As far as if it is called every time, I am sure we can get better at calling those hits and also coaching our kids on how to do it correctly. 
Unfortunately, INFC does not have instant replay to go back and take a penalty away like they do on TV so I think officials are more hesitant to call it. 
College and pro officials have it made when it comes to this, if it looks bad just throw you flag and then we will decide if it was really a penalty in slow motion during 15 replays. 

Safety of the kids should be the number one goal of both officials and coaches. 


Your statement below:
To elaborate more on this.. last night I had a safety intercept a pass and return it for a TD but that was called back for a blindside block that was not led with the hands during the return.. why in the world can you not lead with your shoulder on that play when you can in a receiver that is also getting hit blindly as he is looking into the backfield..

Yes, this I agree with.. so the statement above that the referee would just be making rules up if he called that a penalty is potentially inaccurate...

Also, if I didn’t mention I have not had any issues with this ever but saw the response above and felt we needed more clarification.


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Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Director of Officials on November 07, 2018, 03:14:49 pm
No Zebra99 is correct above, there is no 5 yard illegal contact rule in INFC, NFHS or College rules, only the NFL has that rule and they suck at calling it.  I see contact past 5 yards all the time in the NFL that is not called and then out of the blue on 3rd and 20, they call it and give some team a first down. 

It is the type of contact that I was talking about above.  a defensive player can chuck (with hands) a receiver as long as the ball is not in the air in NFHS. 
They cannot hold though or take them out with their shoulder and or helmet. 
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: snowkylegc on November 07, 2018, 03:17:41 pm


Yes, this I agree with.. so the statement above that the referee would just be making rules up if he called that a penalty is potentially inaccurate...

Also, if I didn’t mention I have not had any issues with this ever but saw the response above and felt we needed more clarification.


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i wouldn't exactly say that the statement is "potentially inaccurate".  He was commenting that that particular action would not be a "pass interference" penalty, which is what this thread started out as.
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Lackey4Prez on November 07, 2018, 03:39:08 pm


Yes, this I agree with.. so the statement above that the referee would just be making rules up if he called that a penalty is potentially inaccurate...

Also, if I didn’t mention I have not had any issues with this ever but saw the response above and felt we needed more clarification.


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i wouldn't exactly say that the statement is "potentially inaccurate".  He was commenting that that particular action would not be a "pass interference" penalty, which is what this thread started out as.

The play I see in question is stated that the receiver is basically tackled and that is why I stated it should be called a foul, I’m not sure what question you are stating the thread was started about.

Regardless, I wanted to get additional clarification for my own knowledge..


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Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Lackey4Prez on November 07, 2018, 03:40:43 pm
No Zebra99 is correct above, there is no 5 yard illegal contact rule in INFC, NFHS or College rules, only the NFL has that rule and they suck at calling it.  I see contact past 5 yards all the time in the NFL that is not called and then out of the blue on 3rd and 20, they call it and give some team a first down. 

It is the type of contact that I was talking about above.  a defensive player can chuck (with hands) a receiver as long as the ball is not in the air in NFHS. 
They cannot hold though or take them out with their shoulder and or helmet.

Understood, thanks for the clarification.





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Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Coach12 on November 07, 2018, 03:43:11 pm


It is the type of contact that I was talking about above.  a defensive player can chuck (with hands) a receiver as long as the ball is not in the air in NFHS. 
They cannot hold though or take them out with their shoulder and or helmet.

This is exactly what I was referring to and looking for more clarification on. The shucking, I understand and agree with. But full on hitting a WR in his route, with no use of hands, is more of what I'm concerned with.
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: CoachEmUp" on November 07, 2018, 04:23:57 pm
 Coach12 what play number is it on frontrow! and both team names and date and grade Bobbie can look at it and let you know exactly what should have been called.
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Coach12 on November 07, 2018, 04:35:09 pm
I went and looked for it, and with the camera being so close/low to the field, you can't see the WR/play in question. The OL/DL are in the way. It had no impact on the outcome of the game. Also, the second play I had initially questioned as well, was a hand shuck... Just a violent one! lol Thanks for the clarification all!
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: snowkylegc on November 07, 2018, 10:01:32 pm


Yes, this I agree with.. so the statement above that the referee would just be making rules up if he called that a penalty is potentially inaccurate...

Also, if I didn’t mention I have not had any issues with this ever but saw the response above and felt we needed more clarification.


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i wouldn't exactly say that the statement is "potentially inaccurate".  He was commenting that that particular action would not be a "pass interference" penalty, which is what this thread started out as.

The play I see in question is stated that the receiver is basically tackled and that is why I stated it should be called a foul, I’m not sure what question you are stating the thread was started about.

Regardless, I wanted to get additional clarification for my own knowledge..


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Well, the title of the thread is "pass interference", so my understanding was the explanations were coming from that viewpoint on whether it was P I or not, and not any other penalty.  That's why i said stated that saying his explanation was inaccurate isn't exactly correct. But i understand where you're coming from as far as it being some OTHER penalty (i.e. targeting, defenseless player, etc.)  I wasn't trying to start an argument, just explaining how that call wouldn't be pass interference, as the thread title indicates.  That's all.
Title: Re: Pass Interference
Post by: Lackey4Prez on November 07, 2018, 10:03:04 pm


Yes, this I agree with.. so the statement above that the referee would just be making rules up if he called that a penalty is potentially inaccurate...

Also, if I didn’t mention I have not had any issues with this ever but saw the response above and felt we needed more clarification.


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i wouldn't exactly say that the statement is "potentially inaccurate".  He was commenting that that particular action would not be a "pass interference" penalty, which is what this thread started out as.

The play I see in question is stated that the receiver is basically tackled and that is why I stated it should be called a foul, I’m not sure what question you are stating the thread was started about.

Regardless, I wanted to get additional clarification for my own knowledge..


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Well, the title of the thread is "pass interference", so my understanding was the explanations were coming from that viewpoint on whether it was P I or not, and not any other penalty.  That's why i said stated that saying his explanation was inaccurate isn't exactly correct. But i understand where you're coming from as far as it being some OTHER penalty (i.e. targeting, defenseless player, etc.)  I wasn't trying to start an argument, just explaining how that call wouldn't be pass interference, as the thread title indicates.  That's all.

No worries man, I don’t get my feelings hurt. I see your point of view now also.. see you around..


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