Author Topic: 5 in the backfield  (Read 503 times)

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ctfsooner

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5 in the backfield
« on: August 26, 2019, 09:07:46 am »
Can you tell me what you see in this set?  4 or 5 in the backfield?  Our head coach asked the official about this.  His response: "I go to classes once a week on this.  You coach football and I will ref.  We have applications for ref's if you'd like to do my job (or something of that nature)." 

I'd like to point out that no one was yelling at the ref about this.  We "asked" him to look for it.  They lined up in this set about 10 times on Saturday.

This is the same crew that threw a flag, marked the penalty off then allowed the other coach to come on the field and call someone (I'll assume someone from INFC) causing a 3-5 minute delay in the game and then proceeding to waive the penalty off and place the ball back after the phone call.  No clue what they were discussing as no one from our sideline was given an explanation.

I will say that I don't expect the refs to be perfect.  I do expect them to be professional.  For the most part this crew is pretty good, just surprised to see them take a phone call during the 2nd quarter causing a delay in the game.  This is a slippery slope to allow this.  Ref's make mistakes, Coaches make mistakes, but I don't see how this type of behavior is allowed.

Please know that this isn't a complaint.  I hope this serves as a "coaching" moment for those involved.

Appreciate you taking the time to read this.

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CoachEmUp"

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 09:24:49 am »
Under the rules it’s totally legal for a head coach to call a timeout to discuss a rule with a official who can call to get help on a call. That flag can be picked up and the timeout is not charged. Also I see 4 in the backfield the guy on the right is on the line of scrimmage. That rule would be under the Nfhs rulebook if I get time today I will quote the rule. I think we can all do a better job of communication when it’s comes to rules.
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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 09:29:44 am »
I see 4 in the backfield for this formation.  The guys on the end of the line could stand to move up a bit for sure - but I would likely warn them on that before we would throw a flag. 

They actually called me on the delay you are talking about.  The question was whether a split out receiver is able to cover up a 2 striper or it if had to be a tight end.  Sorry you were not given a proper explanation of what was going on.  That is a really solid crew - just some early season confusion on an INFC formation rule.  The answer to the question is a 2 striper just has to be covered up so that he is not an eligible receiver - so the crew properly picked up the flag for an illegal formation. 

ctfsooner

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 09:36:19 am »
Agree about the timeout to ask about a penalty.  Unfortunately, no timeout was called.  Not sure I agree on the lineman on the right, but that wouldn't be the first time I have not completely understood the interpretation of the rules. 

I have attached another screen shot of a formation - this one have 4 in backfield?

Thanks for taking the time to read and reply.  Much appreciated.

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 12:03:33 pm »
Looks to be the same issue - TE is not up completely on the LOS.  Certainly not arguing with you because technically, I agree if he is no man's land he is in the backfield.  Not sure that is going to be called every time in 5th grade INFC.  Depending on the age group, this happens with split out receivers all the time - same situation. 

And as far as the Timeout goes on the rule challenge - if the coach wins the challenge he gets his timeout back.   

ctfsooner

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 01:19:41 pm »
I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to reply.  I have attached my interpretation of 5, arguably 6 in the backfield here, but not intending to beat a dead horse.

I agree about not calling small infractions in 5th grade football, but think that communication is the key if that is the decision the ref makes.  I guess I would ask how to better communicate with an official when a "small infraction oversight" turns into an advantage for one team or another.  You guys have a tough job and I will be the first to say that coaches get out of hand at times.  I have probably been that guy in the past but certainly wasn't during the game in question.  Please note, I am not saying these calls/no-calls had anything to do with the outcome nor I am upset because of the outcome of the game, we were fortunate enough to win in this case.

Again, I don't expect these INFC refs to be perfect, or even near perfect.  Hopefully someone will read this and understand the rules and/or the interpretation of the rules better because of this forum.

All the best...

AllIn21

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2019, 03:10:43 pm »
Was this the bixby red vs Jenks maroon 5th grade game?

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 03:12:17 pm »
Looks to me like 6 in the backfield. I thought that before you drew the lines showing where they were lined up as well. I think this is definitely something that shouldn't have slipped by, but I do understand the refs have a lot to watch and I do understand that some could be a judgement call as the the gentleman replied to your first post that the TE needed to move up a little.


The first picture could definitely just be the refs allowing them to play, but hopefully he asked the TE to move up.

The last picture, unquestionably too many. I wasn't there so I'm not sure what led up to the referee saying what you stated he said, but if that is the case then maybe he is really confused on the rule as that's an obvious to me at least.

I will say most of the refs I have been in discussions with over a rule have always been very professional about it. Sometimes when you know a call isn't going to change in a game and you talk to them afterwards they will apologize for their mistakes as they do have a lot to remember between the Mitey Mites, 3rd & 4th, 5th & 6th, and HS games. Although, this was a standard well known rule.

Maybe just a confusion on what they thought you were talking about? Maybe they thought it was an issue with a 2 striper you were referring to?

Either way, thanks for the post and the pictures to enlighten us exactly what you mean. Much better than just posting a complaint.
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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 09:38:38 am »
Sorry your picture was sideways on the post I was looking at and I did not see the back next to the QB or the two receiver right next to each other split out - definitely 5 in the backfield on that one - should be a penalty. 
The TE is still the same as we spoke about above, yes he needs to move up. Personally I would warn the TE (and the coach) before I threw a flag just for that.
But the other 5 in the backfield should be a penalty every time.     

That picture you marked up kind of looks like there are 12 players on the field - could be wrong, hard to tell for sure. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 09:41:23 am by Director of Officials »
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CoachEmUp"

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Re: 5 in the backfield
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 12:11:49 pm »
There’s 12 for sure
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